epistemological realism vs idealism

Idealism is the view that things exist only as ideas, with no reality as material objects outside of the mind. It is important to note that there are three main strands in Hegel’s idealism, an epistemological strand, an ontological strand, and a moral strand. In short, epistemological realism holds the explanation to distinct the difference between photograph and painting. As nouns the difference between relativism and idealism is that relativism is (uncountable|philosophy) the theory, especially in ethics or aesthetics, that conceptions of truth and moral values are not absolute but are relative to the persons or groups holding them while idealism is the property of a person of having high ideals that are usually unrealizable or at odds with practical life. epistemology metaphysics philosophy-of-mind history-of-philosophy idealism. Quantumleap42,Thank you for writing this and like Cartesian said, I think you have demonstrated a mature understanding of philosophy. Another exceptionally important talk on LDS epistemology was given by Elder Dallin H. Oaks in the October 2010 Church Conference.raedyohed: "If I understand correctly an epistemological realist is limited to tools whereby the data is separate from the observer's experience." By the way who is nobody? What if all peers are LDS members? Athletes regularly practice and run plays and patterns, so that they will have experience. Your post shows a maturity in your understanding of philosophy : congratulation ! We must include all religious scientists. And thus the obvious question, then how can it be objective and not subjective? You're trying to justify a belief in God (which is great). In philosophy, idealism is about the basic structure of reality: idealists hold that the most basic “unit” of reality is not material, but conceptual. Because they can eat food they must be better at computer programming as well!So, let us idiots in on the wise definition of science that would lead one to conclude that since orangutans swing through trees they must be therefore better at experimental science!I'm beginning to think you don't know what science is, just how to throw words like myopic around as if that constitutes a clever argument. They typically focus on features of international relations such as state interactions, size of military forces, balance of powers etc. But look at the culture. Do you think that intuition and inspiration as described here fit within an objectivist paradigm? :)If you are saying they are oxymorons in the sense of religion and science are in disagreement I would say that for me science is a subset of true religion. share | improve this question | follow | edited Mar 29 at 11:27. This means that I firmly know that God can be known objectively, but that logical or rational arguments are insufficient (but not useless) in communicating knowledge about God.Here is how I interpret this:If one firmly knows that God is knowable, but not able to articulate how one has arrived at such knowledge, than how does one impart that understanding of God? In his work, Schopenhauer accepts Kant’s argument that space, time and casualty are … "What this means is that before two people can have a rational, logical discourse (again, those words must be interpreted in light of his entire post) they both must separately have personal experiences with God. Idealism - Idealism - Approaches to understanding idealism: What idealism is may be clarified by approaching it in three ways: through its basic doctrines and principles, through its central questions and answers, and through its significant arguments. In that case I can see how it would be hard to understand how intuition can be objective since it is in effect a manifestation of knowledge that is difficult (at best) or impossible (at worst) to trace. This is to say that a literal interpretation of LDS scripture would be perfectly consistent with an old earth, and these ideas can be taught (and have!) Idealism is when you envision or see things in an ideal or perfect manner. A catholic coming to rescue of LDS guys! What do you teach, catholism or science? Thus it would be more logical to conclude that torture is used for political "conversion" rather than religious "conversion". It will also allow a glimpse of the role of his ontology in refuting skepticism. But I will say this, most people voicing opinions on the internet are not doing science at a high enough quality to get through the peer review process. (It is not about eating veggie curry, it is about rhythms of life.) I don't care if you feel compelled to worship smurf action figures, if you do great science I am more than happy to acknowledge your good work. "Especially, in advancing religions." Ancient1,Sorry if I came across with a condescending tone. "Using anecdotal, non-empirical experiences to verify other anecdotal, non-empirical experiences does not qualify as testing for the falsifiability of an objective reality (in your case, "god."). Realism and idealism on the other hand differ greatly on an ontological level. "Consider Mormonism." There is no "brainwashing by a belief. Science of belief?I know you all do good science, but we all have heard of data manipulation to meet the beliefs of scientists. The Backstory: I purchased Kant's "Critique of Pure Reason" yesterday. Is something being vital to science the measure of something's worth.This sounds a little myopic.Also, notice you have not defined religion. One cannot say oxymoron until one has not defined what is meant by religion and science. The most influential critics of both epistemological and ontological idealism were G. E. Moore and Bertrand Russell, but its critics also included the new realists. Jared & QL42,QL42 wrote: I am a epistemological realist of the Aristotelian empiricism persuasion. 2+2 = 4, requires one to understand what 2 is! Ancient1,You are right, my claim is only as strong as the peer review process which I agree is flawed. I think LDS guys would run faster than a speeding photon!Did you check with your poppy? (Although, if you are going to be doing good science it would be nice if you would back up your concerns with some data. One day I would like to talk to you more about such views as I'm sure they are *very* interesting. It is an interaction between spirit(s) and at this time we cannot measure or directly observe that (see D&C 131:7). The point is to play it safe, never step outside your comfort zone, and never offend anyone. Ancient1,"requires one to understand what 2 is! If that is your issue I would say look around and you may find some. My point is, when it comes to real science I can assure you it is being done correctly around here and no part of being LDS prevents this. Ontologically, poststructuralism is related to idealism and critical realism is related to realism. You might be interested in this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaiian_earring The Hawaiian Earring. As a LDS scientist in the start of my career I'm just now beginning to see the fundamental importance of addressing these kinds of questions, so I really appreciate finding blogs like this one to hash through this stuff with folks like yourselves. From my perspective, I am happy and proud to be a scientist, without any religious labels. John,Last first: I have defined religion long time ago at this blog. My experience is that the peer review process, though flawed, does a good job weeding out science manipulated for *any* reason. Epistemological realism is a philosophical position, a subcategory of objectivism, holding that what you know about an object exists independently of our mind. John,I do think ancient1 has deep reasons for drawing these conclusions, but I do fail to understand why he wants to spend his time attacking us. Both idealism and realism, as philosophical terms, deal with the relationship between our minds and the world. I will judge them by their science. Just to point out I am not a Mormon so don't try to skirt around the issue as you did with others by insulting mormons. Would they distort science because it advances LDS positions? This is made much easier when we have shared experiences, hence the demand to proselytize. I think all people should be proud to be scientists regardless of religious affiliation just as I think heart surgens should be proud of being heart surgens independent of their religious affiliation.I fail to see any hard evidence that religion is effecting the quality of science coming from scientists who are persistently publishing in peer reviewed journals. In the epistemological sense this means that one cannot know the existence of things beyond the realm of the intellect. Why don’t we have cookie-cutter physicists all over the world, heck, we have been imparting “the experiences” for a long time. JS,In your rambling post, you used the selective deconstruction like QL42 used before, both unsuccessfuly. Why don’t you look at the cases of misguided in your own religion (not faith, because a faith is absolutely personal and does not involve others).There are no two identical experiences, so, your hallucination about god (note small g), is really your nightmare. Some people are going to continue to believe nonsense (with no correction) and others will see reality (but can't say anything about it because of cultural pressure). It is like physiological projection where some issue you might struggle with you start assuming everyone else does too.Nobody thinks religious labels are required for science. Or are you waiting for me to explain something else so that you can launch into criticism?I agree we need to ask tough questions but we need to be more than critics. "Ontological realism" is can be used to mean the thesis that something real exists. The idealist attempts to find in the universe general principles which can be given the status of universal truths. Idealism Vs. Realism . Then three... until the earring is constructed as you do this countably many times. Don't ever take any risks.Why, we built this nice cage just for you, I am saddened you dare to step out of it. In the simplest sense epistemological realism is the idea that observable characteristics exist in the observed object, independent of the observer. ancient1: Why don't you define what being smart is you pretend know-it-all! Against Kantianism, such knowledge is directly about reality, so that the Kantian idea of unknowable things‐in‐themselves is rejected. 2. Another myopic observation that is easier said then backed.Also, nobody is arguing the label religion is needed to be a scientist so why are you arguing a moot point? Epistemological Realism and Onto-Relations . Epistemological Realism, and the Basis of Scepticism 417 ... idealism and Carnap's verificationism as responses to scepticism which, because they abandon the conception of objectivity that is an integral component of our ordinary understanding of knowledge of the world, are hardly distinguishable from the scepticism they are supposed to refute. "I think you and I must have read a different paragraph. This is often called "Platonic Realism," because Plato seems to have attributed to these Forms an existence independent of any mind. And, it is the country and flag that leads us to wars for the benefits of power seekers or megalomaniacs. -- While some religious people have used torture in advancing their religions, those examples are an extreme minority, and usually accompany the spread of political influence. John,Did you read definition of religion? Realism, very simply put, is the notion that something is real. Idealism seeks to create intellectual beings and places. The difference is that fundamental. Ancient1,Okay, I see you may have issues with the peer review process and so I will humor you and ask: what would be a better "litmus test" that we can use to decide if science is being to contaminated by personal bias/beliefs than the traditional peer review process? Sorry Ancient1, you have missed the point. For that singular focus, you have to study eastern faiths (not religions), mostly of Indian subcontinent. -- Part of what I was driving at (and is discussed in quite depth in the book Science, Religion, and Mormon Cosmology by Erich Robert Paul, definitely worth reading) is that Mormonism inherently has build into it a mechanism for dealing with these problems. I would think an epistemological realist's tools would be limited to things such as parsimony, probabilistic hypotheses, inference, etc. "I can not speak of the evils or goodness unless I have experienced it!" In other words, using anecdotal experiences to verify other anecdotal experiences is what scientists do in order to learn about an objective reality. Now consider your Sunday School classes on these topics. JS,I offered many interesting ideas, but your myopic ways interfer in your comprehension.Here is the main idea: religious scientist is an oxymoron (which you have amply proved).Here is another proof of you being an oxymoron: What does those two asteriks doing around besides, That, and many of your other comments and posts. Mihir Mihir. I bet you surely will wet your pants if you were to go a kiddie playyard and try to do a swing with a banana in your hand!Why don't you define science as you seem to be a know-it-all. -- Yes, to a point. But your question misses a major point. Be as myopic as you like. I need to go read the OP a couple more times! To use an analogy that might make sense, realism would be like a theory of physics that accepts conservation of energy, and idealism would be like a theory that does not accept that conservation of energy. JS,First of all, you deleted my comment that summarized most of the dialog, because you felt it was critical of you. Hello,I know this is annoying- but I'm trying to pinpoint a quote by John Cage. " Look, I would like you to stick around since you present an alternative view which I appreciate but I do have to limit the level of personal attacks.All the most respected science venues will flat out reject papers if they contain blatant personal attacks. I fail to see how this is non-empirical since experience is, by definition, empirical. In Mormon doctrine (not to be confused with Mormon Doctrine, the book) there is a mechanism that exists to answer and address questions such as the age of the earth. Why don't you look at my comments on this post, and previous post of NN about Priest. 131 7 7 bronze badges. In order for us to be able to differentiate between idealism and realism, we must first have a thorough understanding of the two terms. I consider your act of deletion as a demonstration of cowardliness of spirit; yet, you did feel compelled to explain your action, and that makes me happy.Further you offered me to let you know others comments I find as attack. -- I am religious because of my personal knowledge, or my experience. If anything, it's closer to a definition of faith but even then it's not a definition of faith that most Mormons would use. Here is an example:2Na + 2Cl = 2NaCl. Idealism and Realism are two diverse concepts that are commonly used in various areas of life, like philosophy, politics or epistemology. So are materialism and neutral monism. I will leave at that. Abstract . Science at its core and in its history is against those ideas. That its experience is due to the sensory abilities of the human mind and not because reality exists in itself, as an independent entity. So, I have had personal experiences with God similar to what QL42 has had, therefore we can have rational, logical discourses about God. It is opposed to epistemological idealism.. Epistemological realism is related directly to the correspondence theory of truth, which claims that the world exists independently and innately to our perceptions of it. QL42 - I'm LDS and a biologist. After all the trouble we went through! What does it mean to add? QL42,Then, why proselytise?Take torture: is it not an attempt to makr one confess to the opinions held by the torturer? I could equally say "to do science we don't need male scientists" and so should that lead me to conclude we don't need men? JS,You may be sincere in your assurance but it is really an empty promise. Part of LDS doctrine is the idea that we have existed as "intelligences" for an eternity before we lived on this earth. Ancient1,Believe it or not I really like you which is why I have let the personal attacks slide after having already told you that I will censor such comments. They are idealism, realism, pragmatism (sometimes called experientialism), and existentialism. I'm sure you cannot point to one serious study showing science manipulation for religious reasons is significant.In fact, the statement "we all have heard of data manipulation to meet the beliefs of scientists" I would say is bad science because something as extreme as this has the burden of needing to be backed by some data. So we are off to a good start here. Some have argued, though, that Plato nevertheless also held to a position similar to Immanuel Kant's Transcendental Idealism. The traditional concept of knowledge is a justified true belief. For instance, realists tend to have a more pragmatic and actual view of a situation while idealists see things in an ideal or perfect manner. For example, in education idealism can be seen in the learning process as teachers educate the children … Extending, may be Moroni misled Smith! Thanks for the links. -- I would think that an objective world view would demand that its adherents proselytize, as it would be a necessary step in the verification process. This will show that Hegel’s brand of idealism is, and is intended to be, fully compatible with epistemological realism. you apply Godel to religion"No, you apply his theorem to formal systems of logic sufficiently complex to contain arithmetic not to the set of all things that are true. This verification happens through a rational, logical discourse, which of necessity cannot happen until those involved have had similar experiences on which to base their conversation. -- I never said that we were "not able to articulate" our knowledge, I just said that our words alone cannot convey to someone an experience with the Divine. Update, QL42 posted a response between when I started writing mine and when I published it. There are none. English (wikipedia idealism) Noun; The property of a person of having high ideals that are usually unrealizable or at odds with practical life. These assumptions would change under new knowledge and experience, but if they did then that would prove them right, and they wouldn't have to change anyway ;-). Although it is sometimes employed to argue in favor of metaphysical idealism, in principle epistemological idealism makes no claim about whether sense data are grounded in reality. As a result, we continue this tenuous relationship between mythological and literal interpretations. Relativism is a family of philosophical views which deny claims to objectivity within a particular domain and assert that facts in that domain are relative to the perspective of an observer or the context in which they are assessed. Ancient1, I think the problem here is that we aren't recognizing the difference between "like-minded people" and like-experienced people. realist epistemology must be ontological; and of course all types of knowledge-ontological, ethical, theological, and other types of philosophical knowledge, as well as non-philosophical types of knowledge-must be realist if realism is demonstrated to be true. This verification happens through a rational, logical discourse, which of necessity cannot happen until those involved have had similar experiences on which to base their conversation.The troubling part is that this discourse requires like-minded people, otherwise, the experience can not be shared. Ancient1,You are right, good science *must* be reproducible. Further, your definition of religion as "to believe without personal knowledge (or experience)" is not a definition most people, even people antagonistic to religion, would use. So not just the rejection of epistemological idealism, though wikipedia at least says the former amounts to its rejection. But you couldn't grasp step one: that it is possible to construct a set of things that are true.So, I realized we had to go slowly as this was a tricky concept. Again, I know you didn't use the word "delusional" but it was what I inferred from your description of religion (although, I admit, my inference could be wrong). Epistemological idealism is a philosophical position, a subcategory of subjectivism, holding that what you know about an object exists only in your mind. This is notbecause such people are thought to be devoted to a philosophicaldoctrine but because of their outlook on life generally; indeed, theymay even be pitied, or perhaps envied, for displaying a naïveworldview and not being philosophically critical at all. It is the promise of 72 virgins that motivates the young Muslim to strap a belt that explodes under the command of someone else. Close Up: Capture vs Follow the Actual Objects. Idealism, in philosophy, any view that stresses the central role of the ideal in the interpretation of experience. The main ontological positions are Materialism and Idealism. raedyohed,Here is how QL42 explains in the last paragraph:...meaning before I can claim experience with God in a rational way, it must be independently verified by the personal experiences of others. Idealism as a philosophy came under heavy attack in the West at the turn of the 20th century. Ontological realism claims that at least a part of reality is ontologically independent of human minds. Don't we have to go out on a limb and be idealists for this to happen?" "I can assure you I do not see this on any significant level. Types of idealist epistemology can be differentiated with respect to incompatible forms of realism. I will remove this comment as I don't want to censure in public but since I have no other way of contacting you it has to stay up long enough to be noticed. Likewise epistemological idealism is the idea that the characteristics exist in the mind of the observer independent of the object. The most influential critics of both epistemological and ontological idealism were G. E. Moore and Bertrand Russell, but its critics also included the new realists. Jared,I think you are reading way more than I intended.I do not consider any faith delusional, and I look forward to this spring to provide nice cold water bottles to two mormon youths. Humans don't matter at all. Idealists reject the idea that objects are independent of our minds. To be honest, I really want to figure out how to keep the discussions peaceful enough so that people who would like to respond don't feel too intimidated.Lots of people have very interesting things to say. I practice yoga of breath and meditation leading me to silence of my Spirit, and by the way, this is the reality of us all, to be experienced by us all, uniquely. Or, two people cannot talk rationally and logically about the taste of oranges if both have not tasted oranges.There's nothing about imposing beliefs on others. Ancient1 what quantification are you using to say "orangutans probably do better experimental science than many here."? This mechanism I am referring to is the same thing that you mentioned as giving a "balance [to] those religious tendencies". After all, the mind is our only tool for understanding that world, and therefore all of our perceptions and understandings will be constrained by the structure of the mind. You can look up Joseph Campbell's definition at Wiki.I will agree with you that male orangutans may not do science, but they can be religious and oxymoronic. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves." My gut feel is that orangutans probably do better experimental science than many here.My position has been a scientist does not need label like religion, male etc., and a person of faith does not need science as crutches to walk on the path. Perhaps you can point me to any evidence at all that I am wrong? Madsen explains it) intuition is simply a manifestation of the cumulative knowledge that we have gained before this life (and some in this life). In order for us to be able to differentiate between idealism and realism, we must first have a thorough understanding of the two terms. Finally, concluding remarks ensue. The coauthors of this blog can correct me if I'm wrong.Now, I will admit it there seems to be something about LDS culture where we enjoy speculating about all kinds of stuff. This view is compatible with physicalism (eliminative and reductive materialism), emergent materialism, and dualism, and even objective idealism, but incompatible with subjective idealism (solipsism, phenomenalism). Alfred North Whitehead. While Plato, and his "footnotes", maintain that they are observing an objective reality, it seems that they are wholly dependent on "data [that] is separate from the observer's experience." If so we at least know the set is not empty.We can start with there and then begin to construct the set. You have read a lot and comprehended nothing. Objective idealism is a form of realism. All you said, in a tactful way, is that religious people are delusional, thereby giving a perfect example of the point of QL42's post (i.e., you and Mormons cannot sit down and have a logical, rational discussion about God because you work from the assumption that Mormons are delusional and thus, not logical). Do you want me to be helpful or not?Now, it turns out Godel showed these things that a formal system fails to prove are true, not both true and false at the same time so I'm confused how you can imagine something being both true and false.Now, and I'm trying to not sound condescending here, but a member of the set of things that is true is not also false. Let me illustrate:ancient1: Dogs are smarter than humans.me: By what definition of smart leads you to conclude that dogs "smarter than humans"? This chapter shows that idealism is better understood as a series of approaches to knowledge related more in name than in specific epistemological doctrine. I'm *more* interested in people who will propose interesting ideas than those who just go around being a critic calling everyone else idiots or brainwashed.So, do you have any interesting ideas to present that we can use to answer these questions or are you waiting for me to put forward answers so you can go back to name-calling and criticizing? We do not!raedyohed, I don't know anything about you other than what you have posted here, so I don't know if you are LDS or not. Ancient1,Sorry, I have been away today so not able to respond. Why don’t you research torture then arm-wave it away. Ancient1,I can assure you there is no "subverting science" going on around here. Against Kantianism, such knowledge is directly about reality, so that the Kantian idea of unknowable things‐in‐themselves is rejected. Ancient1,Do you mean oxymoron in the sense that it is impossible to have a religious scientist? Everyone is their own universe spinning independently" and then something about not imposing your will on them.

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